JC SMASH!!!This post requires some additional material to get the full effect. So, if you will follow along at on this table from the US Census Bureau, the debate will make a lot more sense:
MosesKnows: listening to liberals rally for their only solution which is always throwing money at the problem can get disgusting after a while.
Jesus Claus: MK, hearing conservatives justify taking money from children makes me sick
peace_path: i agree JC
gogo_12: moses throw money at Corps and you have greed and 3.00 a gal gas
MosesKnows: some people, mainly liberals, favor helping people without any expectations from those being helped....in that fashion they ensure an endless supply of people in need of their help.
CowgirlUp85: well said Jesus
Jesus Claus: silly, MK
CowgirlUp85: what would Jesus spend his money on?
Jesus Claus: how can you use such nonsens to justify taking money from children?
peace_path: there will always be someone in need MK
CowgirlUp85: people or capitalism........ummm?
Jesus Claus: MK, it is a critical need to make sure children are spent on to ensure a good upbringing
fuzzybear45: it not that libs want to help the poor and Con dont it that one think it is only the goverment is the olny way to effect help the poor and other dont
MosesKnows: what liberals run away from is the fact that govt helping people is about the most harmful thing that can be done to people in need of help.
paldaniel: meses,,,do you think you are masking your greed?
Jesus Claus: fuzzy, exactly
Jesus Claus: what nonsense, MK
Jesus Claus: helping children eat is bad?
Jesus Claus: helping mothers with child care so they can work is bad?
fuzzybear45: the goverment is not the only way to help the poor
peace_path: shame on politicians, etc whom cut /take food from kids.. all those food programs
Jesus Claus: giving children medical care is bad?
MosesKnows: jesus - as i said, the liberals run away from the facts....
Jesus Claus: what facts?
Jesus Claus: you offer no facts
fuzzybear45: nor is it the right insetution to use as your primary form of help for the poor
Jesus Claus: you offer selfishness
gogo_12: conservites idea is to fuck who you can to make a buck
star432_1: We need to turn off programs that fill our children with the thoughts tht fill their minds /or tremendous amount of self-control.
MosesKnows: jesus - lol...has you unselfishness increased or decreased poverty with the several trillion dollars spent on these misguided liberal social welfare experiments you liberals call assistance?
Jesus Claus: absolutely decreased
Jesus Claus: SS decreased poverty
MosesKnows: jesus - lol....even you and all your bull couldn't sell that argument....lol
Jesus Claus: ss reduced poverty
Jesus Claus: medicaid reduced poverty
ononotagain: my dog is barking at psychs Knocking
MosesKnows: jesus - lol
Jesus Claus: The Great Society certainly reduced poverty
paldaniel: you are an open book moses,,,pure selfishness
MosesKnows: jesus - you get funnier and funnier...
Jesus Claus: The Great Society cut black poverty in half
Jesus Claus: thar stats speak for themselves
Jesus Claus: poverty has markedly decreased
Jesus Claus: Moses, look at this data
Jesus Claus: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/histpov/hstpov2.html
Jesus Claus: Great Society began mid 60's
Jesus Claus: poverty rate before ~20%
Jesus Claus: poverty rate after ~10%
Jesus Claus: QED
Jesus Claus: in fact, according to that table, MK
Jesus Claus: poverty was around 11%, but started going up in 1980
Jesus Claus: what happened in 1980?
Jesus Claus: poverty rates were cut from 20% to 11% in the 60's and 70's
Jesus Claus: poverty went up in 1980
Jesus Claus: poverty rose to a max of 15% in 1993
Jesus Claus: then went down under Clinton
Jesus Claus: Clinton had poverty down up to 2000
Jesus Claus: then, Dubya got it rising again
MosesKnows: jesus - the link you gave indicates that poverty percentages INCREASED thru 2004 which is as far as the data shows.
Jesus Claus: so, you are proven wrong, MK
Jesus Claus: yes, they did increase
Jesus Claus: under Bush
ononotagain: Jesus Claus: then went down under Clinton didn't everybody?
Jesus Claus: Bush has poverty rising
Jesus Claus: hahaha ono
Jesus Claus: this data is pretty clear, MK
MosesKnows: jesus - lol..did you give me 1 link and yourself another....the link you gave me clearly shows an increase in poverty.
Jesus Claus: Poverty down b/c of Great Society
circumspect1: and the section 8 housing
Jesus Claus: Poverty up under Reagan
Jesus Claus: Poverty down under Clinton to a low of 11.3 in 2000
Jesus Claus: Povery now moving up under Bush
circumspect1: reagan
Jesus Claus: is this confusing, MK?
Jesus Claus: look at the trends
Jesus Claus: if this were a graph, povery would go down after Great Society
Jesus Claus: then up under Reagan and Bush
Jesus Claus: then down under CLinton
Jesus Claus: then back up under Bush
Jesus Claus: get it?
MosesKnows: jesus - your argument was that poverty was decreased, my argument was that poverty increased....why are you giving me links that support my position by showing that poverty increased...and then you post in text that poverty increased.
Jesus Claus: the price we pay for letting kids suffer outweighs your desire to judge
Jesus Claus: MK, are you not able to interpret that chart?
Jesus Claus: MK, what was the poverty rate at the beginning of the chart?
Jesus Claus: MK, the chart proves me 100% right
Jesus Claus: in fact, the chart CANNOT mean what you say
MosesKnows: MosesKnows: jesus - lol...has you unselfishness increased or decreased poverty with the several trillion dollars spent on these misguided liberal social welfare experiments you liberals call assistance? Jesus Claus: absolutely decreased
Jesus Claus: because the rate is the rate at the beginning is 22.4%
Jesus Claus: and at the end is 12.7%
Jesus Claus: so even if you drew a straight line, poverty has decreased
Jesus Claus: right, MK
Jesus Claus: is moving from 22.4 to 12.7 an increase or a decrease?
Jesus Claus: well, MK?
Jesus Claus: is 22.4 to 12.7 an increase or a decrease?
Jesus Claus: simple question
Jesus Claus: read the table, MK
binky110: 22.4 to 12.7 is a decrease if those are percentages
Jesus Claus: 22.4 to 12.7
Jesus Claus: ty binky
Jesus Claus: but the table is not so simple
Jesus Claus: the rate reduced from ~20% to ~10% because of the Great Society
Jesus Claus: see that, MK?
Jesus Claus: then, poverty started going up, under Reagan
Jesus Claus: it went up until 1993, when it began dropping under CLinton
Jesus Claus: then it bottomed out in 2000 and started going up again
Jesus Claus: so, MK, what is your answer?
Jesus Claus: you have the chart
Jesus Claus: look at the figures
Jesus Claus: and tell me poverty does not decrease under "liberal" policies
At this point, it should be obvious that Moses either cannot read simple tables, or is being tendentiously dishonest by denying that the table says what it clearly in fact says. The numbers looming so oppressively over him, he desperately lunges for a lifeline:
MosesKnows: jesus - lol...it cannot be done that simply over such a long period of time...the definitions of poverty have changed to often over that long period of time....
Jesus Claus: is that so?
Jesus Claus: i don't think you know that
Jesus Claus: the amount of the poverty level does change
Jesus Claus: relative to inflation
Jesus Claus: but has the definition changed?
Jesus Claus: can you provide evidence for that contention?
MosesKnows: jesus - is it then your contention that since less people are below the poverty less liberal welfare programs are required?
Jesus Claus: MK, poverty is increasing
binky110: poverty is definatly increasing
Jesus Claus: so clearly, the policy remedy would be to do what was working under CLinton
Jesus Claus: which is clearly not tax cuts for the wealthy
MosesKnows: jesus - okay, if poverty is increasing is it then your contention that since more people are below the poverty more liberal welfare programs are required?
Jesus Claus: so, Mk, do you admit that poverty is increasing under Bush?
Jesus Claus: actually, it isn't those programs that cause poverty
Jesus Claus: the programs ADDRESSS the poverty
MosesKnows: jesus - yes.
Jesus Claus: they do not cause it
Jesus Claus: MK, if you were correct, then enactment of the Great Society, a major welfare program would have INCREASED poverty
Jesus Claus: but it did not
Jesus Claus: it decreased it
Jesus Claus: so, there you go
MosesKnows: jesus - okay, if poverty is increasing under president bush is it then your contention that since more people are below the poverty level more liberal welfare program funding is are required?
Jesus Claus: yes, properly funding those programs woudld be a good idea
Jesus Claus: especially school lunches, food stamps for families with kids, and medicaid helth care for kids
Jesus Claus: children should not suffer because they were born into poverty
Jesus Claus: don't you agree?
MosesKnows: jesus - no, i don't agree, when it comes to federal govt assistance....being born poor has created more people that wanted to excel than all your liberal welfare programs combined.
Jesus Claus: MK, your contention is not based on facts
Jesus Claus: as you saw, enactment of The Great Society reduced poverty
Jesus Claus: so giving money to poor people reduced their poverty
Jesus Claus: what a concept
Jesus Claus: also, the job growth under Clinton, sustained by realistic tax policy, helped people out of poverty
MosesKnows: jesus - funding for the great society also robbed the social security trust fund...they are consequences to federal govt funding of unconstitutional programs has a downside....first of all, the great society was unncessary.
Jesus Claus: see, republicans like to ignore or demonize poor people
Jesus Claus: as Reagan did
ononotagain: MOSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! soc.sec. was secure until Bush
Jesus Claus: how was it unnecessary?
Now MK invents a new type of argument, one which I have named the Argumentum ad Cantor Papillas Amplus, or the Argument from Big-Breasted Singer:
MosesKnows: jesus - was dolly pardon ever poor?
Jesus Claus: MK, we are making an argument with stats
Jesus Claus: anecdotes do not help
Cardinal_Fang: Moses .. Military spending is currently 6 times what iot costs to fix social security .. money taken from you , to hurt others , for reward for a few
Jesus Claus: and how do you know Dolly Parton's family did not receive government assistance?
Jesus Claus: isn't it likely they did?
MosesKnows: jesus - government statistics are like a fine perfume....meant to be sniffed, but never inhaled.
Brizter: Dolly Parton had a couple of big hits
MosesKnows: jesus - it is far more likely that they did not.
Jesus Claus: really?
Jesus Claus: can you prove that?
Jesus Claus: I'd love to see it
MosesKnows: jesus - yes, i beleive i can prove it...from her biography...can you prove they did receive govt assistance?
ononotagain: demonising welfare recipients is stupid! Every human deserves a fair share of the worlds resources. Poor people are what keeps YOU in your elitist position. DON'T DESTROY YOUR BASE
Jesus Claus: we have a progressive taxation system
MosesKnows: cardinal - are you agreeing that social security needs fixing?
Jesus Claus: MK, you brought it up
Jesus Claus: but I will remind you that anecdotal evidence is of limited value here
Cardinal_Fang: No .. I am saying the money was robbed to give to the Carlyle Group .. and America should use r.i.c.c.o. stautes to get it back
MosesKnows: jesus - no, you brought it up. Jesus Claus: and how do you know Dolly Parton's family did not receive government assistance?
Cardinal_Fang: Bush sold America ''down the river''
Jesus Claus: no, you brought it up MosesKnows: jesus - was dolly pardon ever poor?
Jesus Claus: you raised an anecdotal point
ononotagain: Bush and his henchmen have BUSTED the soc.sec. lockbox, and STOLEN our grandchildrens security
Jesus Claus: but that is not definitive
Jesus Claus: unless you can show it relates to the larger numbers
MosesKnows: jesus - what does that question have to do with her family receiving govt assistance....be honest
Jesus Claus: your anecdote could very easily be an anomoly
Jesus Claus: MK, can you address the data?
Cardinal_Fang: Moses .. can you deny military spending has taken from social security? Or will you try to blow that off somehow?
Jesus Claus: a single anecdote is not relevant
Jesus Claus: also, MK, Bush's tax cuts, if revoked, would easily pay for the SS shortfall
Cardinal_Fang: Military spending has not benefitted americans in general ... just a few within the military undustrial complex
Cardinal_Fang: It keeps americans poor
MosesKnows: jesus - oh, is there a social security shortfall...when did you give in to that position?
Jesus Claus: MK, I have long suggested increasing the ceiling of the payroll tax to solve the shortfall
Jesus Claus: Dems have alwyas acknowledged the shortfall
Jesus Claus: always
Jesus Claus: the issue is, how to address it
Jesus Claus: not whether it exists
Jesus Claus: capisce?
MosesKnows: i have to leave in a moment....those who want credit for running me from the room please get in line.
Jesus Claus: MK, again, the poverty statistics prove me right
gofigure_1: ok moses....me first............LOL
MosesKnows: jesus - take a number
Jesus Claus: i'll post the debate, MK, so others can see it
That was a bloodbath, my friends. Good thing none of the blood was mine. I think MosesKnows gets himself in trouble because he is so fanatically dedicated to this radical conservative ideology. John Kenneth Galbraith, a famous liberal economist who died earlier today, said it best:
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."
JC
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