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Wednesday, July 12, 2006

FOUNDING FATHERS CHRISTIAN: FACT OR MYTH?

No one disputes the faith of our Founding Fathers. To speak of unalienable Rights being endowed by a Creator certainly shows a sensitivity to our spiritual selves. What is surprising is when fundamentalist Christians think the Founding Fathers' faith had anything to do with the Bible. Without exception, the faith of our Founding Fathers was deist, not theist. It was best expressed earlier in the Declaration of Independence, when they spoke of "the Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God." :

"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation, ." The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America.

Still in doubt I know, so I am going to place some quotes from some of the founding fathers themselves on this matter. Let's start with Thomas Jefferson:

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short.

One more by Thomas Jefferson:

"The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ" (don't attack me I'm only quoting)

How about George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a Universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance:
George Washington and Religion by Paul F. Boller Jr., pp. 16, 87, 88, 108, 113, 121, 127 (1963, Southern Methodist University Press, Dallas, TX)

A word from John Adams: "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states: The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.

Now on to Thomas Jefferson, third president and author of the Declaration of Independence, said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." He referred to the Revelation of St. John as "the ravings of a maniac" and wrote: The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ leveled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticism of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonism engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained,": Thomas Jefferson, an Intimate History by Fawn M. Brodie, p. 453 (1974, W.W) Norton and Co. Inc. New York, NY) Quoting a letter by TJ to Alexander Smyth Jan 17, 1825, and Thomas Jefferson, Passionate Pilgrim by Alf Mapp Jr., pp. 246 (1991, Madison Books, Lanham, MD) quoting letter by TJ to John Adams, July 5, 1814.

Ethan Allen, whose capture of Fort Ticonderoga while commanding the Green Mountain Boys helped inspire Congress and the country to pursue the War of Independence, said, "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." In the same book, Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian." When Allen married Fanny Buchanan, he stopped his own wedding ceremony when the judge asked him if he promised "to live with Fanny Buchanan agreeable to the laws of God." Allen refused to answer until the judge agreed that the God referred to was the God of Nature, and the laws those "written in the great book of nature" :Religion of the American Enlightenment by G. Adolph Koch, p. 40 (1968, Thomas Crowell Co., New York, NY.) quoting preface and p. 352 of Reason, the Only Oracle of Man and A Sense of History compiled by American Heritage Press Inc., p. 103 (1985, American Heritage Press, Inc., New York, NY.)

Finally let's hear from James Madison: "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy." Madison also objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed. They knew no religion is capable of handling political power without becoming corrupted by it. Even .the original Pledge of Allegiance—meant as an expression of patriotism, not religious faith—also made no mention of God. The pledge was written in 1892 by the socialist Francis Bellamy, a cousin of the famous radical writer Edward Bellamy. Its wording omitted reference not only to God but also, interestingly, to the United States:

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The key words for Bellamy were "indivisible," which recalled the Civil War and the triumph of federal union over states' rights, and "liberty and justice for all," which was supposed to strike a balance between equality and individual freedom. By the 1920s, reciting the pledge had become a ritual in many public schools. The words "my flag" were changed to "the flag of the United States of America" in the 1920s. Congress added the words "under God" in 1954, when the greatest threat to the United States was the "godless" Soviet Union.

Now I just provided you all with some facts of history not well known, but I will leave it up to you the reader. The Founding Fathers, Christian? Fact or myth?

7 comments:

AnonymousPoster said...

The religious heirarchy has indeed peverted the message of Jesus to serve their own uses. That's where the different denominations come into play. There is no mystery there.

Anglicans from England came to this country to escape religious dominance. They wanted to worship as it fit into their own view of God and Christ. It wouldnt surprise me at all for some of our founding fathers to question religion. Every Christian questions existence and belief at one time or another. The non-believer questions that very thing by even questioning Christianity. While your quotes are out of context and their exact meaning cant be determined, they are not surprising. They wanted a goverment that did not force them to practice a religion in a certain way. Your quote of James Madison, "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.", is a clear example that he was a religious man, but didnt want the leader of his country deciding how he practiced his religion.

I have to wonder, why its so important for some to try to prove or disprove the spiritual nature of those who can no longer describe it themselves.

AnonymousPoster said...

Sigh. Get your feelings off your shoulders Livid.

I did not say that the muse made such an attempt to prove or disprove. It was intended to provoke thought. While your tone was with the intent on disproving what I said, your statements only back them up. With the exception of "they "are" here to "describe it themselves". They are not. Their statements can be taken out of context as I already pointed out.

I guess I should say, get your hatred off your shoulders when you read posts. It shows, Livid. It shows.

AnonymousPoster said...

Livid, I am going to have to paste the muse's lable of not reading a post on you. I dont know why youre so hell bent to argue about nothing, but maybe you should go back and see that I basically agreed with her post.

As I said, and I guess you didnt understand that my comment about trying to prove or disprove was merely a thought provoking statement. Sad you cant see through all that hatred. Apparently your "unenlightened ignorance" prohibits you from thinking without that chip on your shoulder.

This is the last I will reply to you on this subject. You cant see through that hate filled agenda of yours.

AnonymousPoster said...

Another dumbass liberal with a chip on his shoulder and cant read.

Vacreeper,
This is what I said. "They wanted a goverment that did not force them to practice a religion in a certain way. Your quote of James Madison, "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.", is a clear example that he was a religious man, but didnt want the leader of his country deciding how he practiced his religion."

This is what you said."The founders meant to exclude religion from government and left it as a right of each individual to determine his/her own spirituality. "

DUH... its the same thought. Our founding fathers did not want a govt deciding how or what they worshiped.. or if they did at all. What part of that dont you understand? Damn I think you guys just want to argue for the fun of it. Do you even pay attention to what youre opposing?

MysticSeaMaiden said...

AP I saw within your comment a wee bit of spinning. You had to say

"While your quotes are out of context and their exact meaning can't be determined"

Now while you are trying ever so subtle to infer I took quotes out of
context you go and do exactly that. You go on to say

"Your quote of James Madison, "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.", is a clear example that he was a religious man"

No where does this quote give "a clear examine" Madison was a religious man. That quote (the only quote I might add) you decided to use as "a clear examine" was in fact taken out of context. That quote was Madison objecting to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."

Ah ha!! Quote seems to take on a different meaning than your interpretation of the quote.

What my interpretation of Madison quote; being used as example, shows that Madison did NOT believe that religion and politics should mix. No where does it give inclination of Madison's personal faith or lack of such.
Anyone can do a wee bit of research of their own to find even more quotes from the Founding Fathers.

Although you did respond to the post and in an intelligent matter (ty) there does appear to be some underlining agenda of saying the founding fathers were Christians in examples such as you saying:

"It wouldn't surprise me at all for some of our founding fathers to question religion. Every Christian questions existence and belief at one time or another"

&

"They wanted to worship as it fit into their own view of God and Christ"

These are two quotes in your comment that implies the Founding Fathers were Christian, even if they were "questioning" religion as all "Christians" do.

No one can deny that in today's world Religion is being used just as some of the Founding Fathers try to protect against. Here let me use Madison again:

"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

Now here let me narrow this quote down a bit.

"Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries."

Now with so many 'political' bills and laws certainly have Christianity at the heart of them. Let's take abortion for instant, reason given by those that want abortion illegal again in this country, is religiously based.

Another is the death penalty, people will use the ever famous quote "An eye for an eye..." (talk about taken out of context) for reason to disregard "Thou shall not kill" part in the bible (funny exactly same one they use to oppose abortion).

In my opinion the founding fathers, having just fled from a place that state and religion were intertwined as one knew the results a religious government would be.

This posting was not to prove or disapprove as you imply in your comment "I have to wonder, why its so important for some to try to prove or disprove the spiritual nature of those who can no longer describe it themselves"

There are many ways to 'listen' to the stories of the founding fathers, so much was written by, about and even at times themselves being the author. You can in fact see them "describe it themselves" by doing research and reading autobiographies, and looking at historical documentation of the Founding Fathers.

They were the Founding Fathers of a new nation based on new ideals, knowing the great task they were taking on. Do you not think they also knew how important documenting their lives and actions would become to future generations?

To say there is no way for the Founding Fathers to describe issues of any importance simply is not true.

I want to thank you AP for your reply, and know this reply to your comment is not meant in anyway to offend you. Perhaps you; yourself, did not see your underlining implications of 'proving' this thread.

AnonymousPoster said...

Yea Livid, uh huh, you know what I would say. What do you know? You still think I am Virginia! LOL You're stupid to even pretend to know what I would say.

Hey folks, this man, who has never talked to me, outside of nipping at my ass in text, thinks he knows what I will say. Psychic or psycho?

Psst... Livid... I speak my own opinion. Its MY opinion and not yours. Thats why I dont CARE of you like my opinions or not! Silly, sad old man.

AnonymousPoster said...

Yes, Muse, the quotes were taken out of context. Out of context means you arent quoting the whole text. While their meaning was basically evident, they could be misunderstood. I basically agreed with your post and all you want to do is attack the messenger and find a way to disagree with me. LOL make up your mind!

I will tell you just like I told Livid. I speak my opinions. I dont CARE if you like them or not. Get over it.

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